Islam is the bedrock of PAS's struggle

THE RECENT PAS elections threw up a number of surprises. Until a week before the election, reformist secretary-general Nasharuddin Mat Isa was thought to go for the vice-presidency.

But he suddenly announced his bid for the deputy presidency. Because of the mood for change among members, his victory did not surprise many, he told ZAINON AHMAD (The Sun).

Please tell our readers a little bit about yourself, your family and your educational background.

I was born in 1962 in Negri Sembilan. Later, my civil servant father was transferred to Kuala Lumpur where I was brought up and where I got my primary and secondary education -- St Gabriel School in Kampung Pandan.

I was in ITM for three semesters doing art and design before I left for India to do Islamic studies at the Darul Ulum Islamic College in Lucknow. And then I went to Jordan and studied Arabic for two years at the language centre at the University of Jordan.

I joined the Faculty of Syariah and studied Islamic law for five years. Came back and was appointed assistant lecturer at the IIU. I later went to the Univesity of Glasgow in Scotland for two years and in 1993 came back to IIU where I completed my Masters degree in comparative law.

I was then appointed lecturer at the faculty of law of the university. In 1997, I resigned from IIU and joined the faculty of law of Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia. I resigned in 1999 to enter politics full-time.

I was appointed PAS secretary-general by its president, the late Datuk Fadzil Noor. I remained in that position until last week. I was MP for Yan from 1999 to 2004. In 2004, I stood in Besut but was defeated.

I am married to school teacher Munirah Mahmud and we have four children. The eldest is in College Insaniah in Kedah, studying for a diploma in information technology.

What made you join PAS?

I became a PAS member when I was a student in Jordan. PAS leaders visited us often in Jordan -- either on the way to perform the umrah or on special visits that they organised. So I met and got to know leaders such as the late Datuk Fadzil Noor, Datuk Abdul Hadi Awang, Datuk Nik Aziz Nik Mat and a number of others.

The number of students in Jordan was not very many but we organised quite a number of activities; sometimes with other Islamic movements in the Middle East. I was more exposed to other Islamic study groups while in the UK and that kept my interest in being a PAS member going.

When I came back I was involved in Dewan Pemuda as a member of its international bureau. I was appointed to the exco. In the 1999 Dewan Pemuda election, I contested and won the highest number of votes for the exco. A position I held only for a couple of weeks. Had to resign because I was appointed secretary-general of the party.

So you joined PAS because you met many of its leaders and also because of your exposure to other Islamic movements.

Meeting PAS leaders and listening to their explanation on what the party was all about and why it was important that the party be strengthened from time to time with young blood and also exposure to Islamic organisations in Jordan.

My interest in Islam and the Islamic way of life had always been strong since my early student days even before I went to Jordan. I was convinced very early in life that we must try to make our environment conducive to live in, in accordance with the requirements of our faith.

Some people say your rise in PAS has been meteoric. What do you say to that?

I cannot deny that. When I received the call from the party president appointing me to the position of secretary-general, it was a great shock to me. I was surprised that he had confidence in me and his choice was endorsed by the other members of the CWC.

I think I did my best to serve the party to the best of my ability. And later I got another surprise when I was told to contest in Yan. I remained dedicated to the party even after I lost in Besut.

I continued to enjoy the trust of Hadi who took over from Fadzil. And now I seem to enjoy the trust of the whole party when it elected me to serve as deputy president.

What made you move from Yan to Besut in the 2004 general election?

I was a candidate in Yan in 1999 by order of the party. In the same way I was told to move to Besut by the party in 2004. So I moved.

You are sure there was no other explanation given? Were reasons given?

No. I was told to move and so I moved. I am subjected to the decision of the party.

Why do you think PAS did badly in 2004? It lost Terengganu and came to a whisker of losing Kelantan. What went wrong?

Well, we did a post-mortem and in our study we took into consideration comments, ideas, suggestions from many sectors of the society within and without the party -- academics, citizens groups, student leaders.

We came to the conclusion there were two reasons why the results were such. One is related to party internal matters such as over-confidence, wrong approaches and things like that. And the external factors include things like how the elections were conducted, how we were portrayed by the mainstream media and change in electoral laws and the re-delineation of boundaries. All this contributed to our poor performance.

Many PAS members took the setback very badly. It should not be the case as in 1999 the party's massive gains -- never achieved before -- was due to extraordinary circumstances. But members thought that it was the beginning of a momentum to finally capture power at the centre. Do you think their disappointment was more to do with a loss of that momentum?

Maybe. But to many PAS members it was a setback. And it affected their spirits for a number of months. The party leaders led by the president went to the ground and explained to members why we suffered a setback. I see it as the ups and downs -- something naturally bound to happen -- in a political struggle.

I mean the history of PAS's struggle has many ups and downs and there were times when we made substantial gains and there were times when we were left with only a few seats.

It took about a year for us to explain to all our members and supporters. They have accepted our explanations and are ready to struggle again. And after the recent muktamar -- the speech by the president and the elections results -- they are in high spirits again.

Some delegates at the muktamar suggested that the party should not allow open elections of party officials saying that it has led to dirty campaign tactics. What do you think? I think we should continue with open elections as it is provided for in Article 14 (1a) of the party constitution but we must frown on unfair campaigning. We must be transparent in the way we elect our leaders to show that we practice democracy. Since we are striving to improve the country's practice of democracy, we must practice democracy and be transparent in what we do.
Your decision to contest for deputy president was last minute and came after party information chief Datuk Dr Haron Din decided to pull out of the race leaving two contenders. What influenced you to be the third contender?

I received nominations from quite a number of divisions for the number two, the VPs and also for the CWC. The same thing happened in the last party elections in 1999. But I withdrew at the eleventh hour just before the close of the time for refusal to contest. If you remember, I did not contest for any post then.

This year I received a lot of encouragement from members to go for either deputy president or the vice presidency. There was also encouragement from the top leaders for me to go for the number two post after it became apparent that Dr Haron was not going to contest. And when he finally and officially decided not to contest, I was again nudged to make a bid for it.

Just before nominations closed, with the blessings from many prominent party members -- and the younger ones, of course -- I decided to go for it.

Many people think you rode to victory on "the agenda for change" battle cry of the younger members and the general mood of the leaders and members for change. You agree?

I agree. The mood for change -- among younger as well as older members -- was overwhelming. It could be sensed even weeks before the AGM. The members want change and want a new committee that could change the party and make it more pro-active in expanding its influence.

Of course, they understood that former leaders had contributed a lot to the expansion of the party but I think the members want the party to move forward a little bit faster this time. Also they want the party to move in directions more relevant to the current political scenario in Malaysia.

As secretary-general you had a close working relationship with Abdul Hadi, first when he was deputy president and then when he was acting president and subsequently as president. Is the relationship going to change now that you are deputy president?

I think the relationship is going to be even closer. And this is evident during these few days after Hadi arrived from Terengganu on Tuesday. We have been meeting till late at night -- talking about his vision as contained in his opening speech at the muktamar and talking about many other things that the party must have in place.

And he had already been piling me with work which he knows will get to be done quickly. And he has been delegating much of his work to me -- more so because I live in Kuala Lumpur while he is in Terengganu. I hope I will be given sufficient energy by Allah to do what he wants done.

Are you happy with that?

Well, it is a responsibility I have to carry out. He trusts me and I will not forsake his trust and expectation of me.

Do you agree with the terms ulama and professionals used to describe PAS leaders? Datuk Nik Aziz doesn't seem to agree?

I am with Datuk Nik Aziz and all other PAS leaders on this. Whatever we are -- whether we are alims (knowledgeable persons) in religion or alims in other fields, teachers of religion or teachers of other subjects or academicians, manual workers, businessmen, engineers, architects or doctors -- we are all PAS members.

The front page of the latest issue of Harakah says it all with its headline "PAS is for all". Whoever -- of whatever background -- wants to contribute to PAS they are welcome. As members or mere supporters.

There is no dichotomy of membership being made up of ulamas and professionals or even of ulamas and non-ulamas. Whatever we decide is a collective decision. Futhermore the history of PAS also tells of people of various backgrounds working together in furthering the cause of the party. We used to have a president who was a medical doctor.

We also had alims in religion or ulamas as president as in the case of the late Datuk Fadzil Noor and Haji Yusof Rawa. We have had a mixture of people of various backgrounds as leaders and members. And it is no different now. I think the difference -- ulamas and professionals -- is blown a little bit out of proportion by the media.

Maybe much is made about ulamas as a class of people or an elite group in the party -- that they had held sway in the party and now they are losing their grip. As I understand it there is no such thing as ulama class or clergy in Islam. And during prayer anyone -- ulama or non-ulama -- can lead the congregation. What is your view on this?

Correct. But it is not correct to say that the ulama have dominated the party. All decisions are collective decisions arrived at with the concurrence of leaders who are ulama and those of other callings. Nik Aziz's nomination of Dr Siti Mariah Mahmood as a candidate for VP can be taken as an illustration that the ulama are not dominating the party affairs. She lost.

So it demonstrates that when he, an ulama and Murshidul Am of the party, said that this must be done it will be done. No, it was not done. I am not saying that people had gone against him. He himself had made it clear that he was only suggesting and that it was up to the members to make their decision.

But whatever a leader or a member is it is his or her commitment to the party's struggle in the cause of Islam that is most important or that counts. If he can lead a prayer congregation and is committed to the cause of Islam and PAS, he can lead the party.

What change do you and the new committee expect to bring to the party?

Well, with regard to that the popular word being used is re-imaging -- the re-imaging or even re-branding of PAS. This means we have to make the party more relevant to multi-ethnic, multi-cultural and multi-religious Malaysia. Some of the approaches we are going to use must be in line with that. And one of the approaches is the process of engagement with all spectra of society -- and that we are not closing our doors at all to any elements of the society.

We are opening our doors to suggestions from everyone. We are open to dialogue with everyone. Any group which feels that it wants to meet us or have dialogue with us have only to call us.

We are going to engage with people at different levels and different phases. It is going to be engagement and out-reach.

We want to expand. We want people to understand what we are, what we do and what we have done. We are friendly and have a friendly face and we want people to know us and to see that friendly face.

PAS has three wings: Pemuda, Muslimat and Ulamas. Does it still need a Majlis Syura, a body which is even above the president and the CWC? Seems to me like the Vilayatul Fakihah, composed of ayatollahs, in Iran which can veto the president of the country and its parliament?

The structure is that the Syura council is more an advisory council to the CWC. It does not intervene in the administration of the party or its functioning. The Dewan Ulama has its function just like the other wings have their own function.

The Syura council is in an advisory position and looks into things like interpreting the party constitution and advises the CWC accordingly. And whenever there is a question about some religious issue, it will be the Syura council that will decide and advises the party leaders accordingly.

So it is not quite like the Vilayatul Fakihah in Iran?

No. It does not function like that. It more an advisory council. It is not an authoritative body that can say "yes" or "no" to this or that decision of the party.

The president in his opening speech at the muktamar spelt out what can be seen as a new agenda for PAS makeover or a new image and a new strategy -- to make itself more acceptable to its traditional support base, the Malay-Muslims, and also the non-Malays. Achievable? I will answer that with a big INSHAALLAH. We will pray for God's benevolence and His help. Of course, we will have to work very hard to achieve what is spelt out in the agenda. Working hard means making a thorough study of the proposals and what is to be done and also planning strategic approaches to achieve them.

So it means fleshing out what the president has spelt out. It means strategising. It means the formation of committees for studying each aspect and several implementation committees. This is coming later?

It is coming very soon. We are are already meeting on the agenda as outlined by the president. Most of the members of the CWC have been here since Tuesday. We have been very busy. We want to get cracking.

The new image you mentioned just now, is it in response to make it more acceptable to young and westernised Muslims? And also in response to the image of terrorists that has been forced on Muslims and PAS?

This is what we are going to do in response to all those things you mentioned. I put what we have to do as responses in four circles. The first circle involves the enhancing and strengthening the party members.

What I am going to do in the next couple of months is to go round the country to drum up enthusiasm for the party among members and supporters. This has been agreed to by the president and he has even agreed to be present whenever he can. In order to be a credible political party plus also as an Islamic organisation -- vote and dakwah -- this circle must expand. And we must ensure that it expands.

The second circle involves approaching Malay-Muslims who are not PAS members or supporters. This is quite important for us. The hope is that the dakwah that we conduct will lead to political support. We make them realise what being a Muslim entails and how important it is to live in an environment conducive to practicing Muslims.

And to realise that we have to struggle in order to have that environment. We must win as many Malay-Muslims to our side. As you know they are our traditional vote base.

The third circle is the non-Malay-Muslim community. This where more engagement, outreach and dialogue programmes must be conducted. There must be understanding. We have been active in this area already for the past couple of years -- getting nearer to the non-Malay-Muslim community.

The fourth circle involves the handling the international community. This deals with the identity of PAS as a conservative organisation and supporter of terrorists that has been imposed on us. We have been made to be seen as conservative, backward, Taliban, terrorists and all other negative images.

So you think this image as a conservative party is how PAS is seen from outside the country?

Not just outside the country but also in this country. The image is propagated so that we are seen, especially by the non-Malay-Muslims, as conservative and backward.

Such that they fear us and treat us with suspicion. And maybe even loathing. That will not be the case if they really know us from close quarters. I, for instance, have many Chinese and Indian friends. When I won the deputy president's post an Indian restaurant owner -- a Hindu -- even called me to congratulate me.

I think PAS's image as a conservative party is more due to how it had portrayed itself thus far. I agree to some extent. But this was because that was how the Malay society was then. The party culture was the result of the culture of the society in which it existed. But society has changed. And so we have to change in order to be relevant to the environment in which we operate. We must reflect a Malaysian image -- PAS berwajah Malaysia.

Is that why Nik Aziz and Hadi were in baju Melayu and samping instead of their normal thobe or ankle length robe more common in the Middle East?

It was suggested to them.

I don't remember seeing Islamic state prominently mentioned in the president's speech. Why is that? Is there a de-emphasising of what is the central struggle of PAS?

I don't think so. It was emphasised many times before and in many of the president's previous speeches. This time he devoted his speech to other aspects of the party struggle. The party is now looking more towards the future. So what he dwelt on was what we are going to do in the future.

Sort of de-emphasising it for the moment. But it has not disappeared from PAS's struggle? Is that it?

Islam is the bedrock of PAS's struggle. So it does not mean that because Islamic state is not emphasised it is no longer part of the struggle. No it is not the case. But the party is now concentrating more on the challenges facing us.

But, of course, whenever we are asked we will only be too happy to explain what Islamic state is all about. People equate Islamic state with hudud law. That's wrong and it is unfortunate.

How confident are you that the makeover will attract parties like the DAP to join you in a united opposition?

A study on the strategy to be employed for that purpose has not been done yet. But what we are going to do for the time being is to concentrate on those circles I outlined to you just now and then move forward from there to cooperation among opposition parties in preparation for the next general election.

Of course all these changes you say your party is going to make is all geared towards winning more seats in the next general election. Is PAS now confident it can chip away the formidable strength of Barisan Nasional and Umno? Do you have a plan?

Money-wise we can't. But you must understand that Umno and PAS have been competing for political influence since the first national elections. We have participated in all elections. We believe in the political process.

We only hope that true democracy will emerge here in this country. I am not saying that we are not a democratic country but I am also saying that not all the principles of true democracy are being applied here. Maybe what we have here is pseudo-democracy.

We have some democratic space here and there but our hands are also tied in other aspects like freedom of the press, freedom of expression, right to have public rallies and gathering, arbitrary change of election rules. These aspects must be restored before we can call ourselves a democracy.

We are going to make a lot of suggestions in the next few months to begin the reform process. Up for reform is also the Elections Commission. We were at its office a few months ago.

We told the officials that it was a first visit and that there will be many more visits and suggestions to make the commission reform itself. We want to see reformed not only the process of elections but also the system. We are recommending the system widely practiced elsewhere -- proportional representation as mentioned in the president's speech.

You think that system will be good for Malaysia?

It will be good for Malaysia.

Why the sudden interest in changing the system?

Well, many countries have changed their system while we are still stuck with this first past the post system. We are looking as models the systems used in Europe and also a thorough study is being made on the proportional representation system in New Zealand. It is the latest. And now even our neighbour Indonesia is practising it.

But there is a concern, a fear if you like, that PAS -- like other Islamic parties -- will struggle for power using the democratic means but when it has achieved power it will stifle democracy. What is your response to that?

We have Kelantan as an example. A living example, if you like, of what PAS government is all about. Majority Muslims governed by an Islamic party and yet we have not been unfair to the non-Muslims.

The principle of freedom of religion is firmly upheld in Kelantan. The largest statue of Buddha is not found in Johor or Penang but in Kelantan. This concern or fear of PAS forcing non-Muslims to convert is unfounded. The Quran is clear on this that there should be no compulsion in religion.

We are an Islamic party which strongly believes in and upholds the principles of democracy. In fact we want more democracy in Malaysia. We have to be realistic as Muslims are just about 54% of the population of the country. It is not an overwhelmingly Muslim-majority country. We have to recognise that.

Many people have asked me when we form the government of this country what model will we follow -- the Saudi Arabian model, the Iranian model or even the Sudanese model. I said not any of them. We are going to be our own model.

Many of the members at the muktamar seem to favour former PM Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim to lead a united opposition. Do you think he still has that kind of appeal that, among other things, propelled PAS to make its biggest gain in history in 1999?

I attended the gathering in Istana Hotel on May 29. It was packed. He said it clearly that he was making a comeback. Working with PAS I think he can generate that kind of support. Jointly we are thinking of coming up with programmes for educating the people to realise the importance of their rights as citizens.

So PAS thinks Anwar still has widespread support as in 1999. And for the party to offer to accept him as leader of the united opposition it must be convinced that he still has the support. We think so. But we leave it to the rakyat to decide. He was in Langgar in Kedah last week in a programme organised by PAS. The turnout was huge -- our assessment is that the attendance was anywhere between 30,000 to 40,000. And we haven't taken him to the stadium in Kota Baru yet.

PAS members favour him leading an opposition pact but I wonder whether they would accept him as one of the leaders of their party?

As we have always been saying the party opens its membership to anyone, even members from Umno. In fact I received a number of applications from Umno members. We are open to anyone who wants to join our party. But there are also alot of people out there who are not members but who are staunch supporters. So support for PAS's struggle can be as a member or a supporter.

Hadi and Nik Aziz have always been saying that PAS is more an Islamic movement than a political party. What's your view on this?

We are an Islamic movement with politics as its main component but at the same time we are also a political party based on the fundamentals of Islam based on the Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad.

I don't remember seeing Islamic state prominently mentioned in the president's speech. Why is that? Is there a de-emphasising of what is the central struggle of PAS?

I don't think so. It was emphasised many times before and in many of the president's previous speeches. This time he devoted his speech to other aspects of the party struggle. The party is now looking more towards the future. So what he dwelt on was what we are going to do in the future.

Sort of de-emphasising it for the moment. But it has not disappeared from PAS's struggle? Is that it?

Islam is the bedrock of PAS's struggle. So it does not mean that because Islamic state is not emphasised it is no longer part of the struggle. No it is not the case. But the party is now concentrating more on the challenges facing us.

But, of course, whenever we are asked we will only be too happy to explain what Islamic state is all about. People equate Islamic state with hudud law. That's wrong and it is unfortunate.

How confident are you that the makeover will attract parties like the DAP to join you in a united opposition?

A study on the strategy to be employed for that purpose has not been done yet. But what we are going to do for the time being is to concentrate on those circles I outlined to you just now and then move forward from there to cooperation among opposition parties in preparation for the next general election.

Of course all these changes you say your party is going to make is all geared towards winning more seats in the next general election. Is PAS now confident it can chip away the formidable strength of Barisan Nasional and Umno? Do you have a plan?

Money-wise we can't. But you must understand that Umno and PAS have been competing for political influence since the first national elections. We have participated in all elections. We believe in the political process.

We only hope that true democracy will emerge here in this country. I am not saying that we are not a democratic country but I am also saying that not all the principles of true democracy are being applied here. Maybe what we have here is pseudo-democracy.

We have some democratic space here and there but our hands are also tied in other aspects like freedom of the press, freedom of expression, right to have public rallies and gathering, arbitrary change of election rules. These aspects must be restored before we can call ourselves a democracy.

We are going to make a lot of suggestions in the next few months to begin the reform process. Up for reform is also the Elections Commission. We were at its office a few months ago.

We told the officials that it was a first visit and that there will be many more visits and suggestions to make the commission reform itself. We want to see reformed not only the process of elections but also the system. We are recommending the system widely practiced elsewhere -- proportional representation as mentioned in the president's speech.

You think that system will be good for Malaysia?

It will be good for Malaysia.

Why the sudden interest in changing the system?

Well, many countries have changed their system while we are still stuck with this first past the post system. We are looking as models the systems used in Europe and also a thorough study is being made on the proportional representation system in New Zealand. It is the latest. And now even our neighbour Indonesia is practising it.

But there is a concern, a fear if you like, that PAS -- like other Islamic parties -- will struggle for power using the democratic means but when it has achieved power it will stifle democracy. What is your response to that?

We have Kelantan as an example. A living example, if you like, of what PAS government is all about. Majority Muslims governed by an Islamic party and yet we have not been unfair to the non-Muslims.

The principle of freedom of religion is firmly upheld in Kelantan. The largest statue of Buddha is not found in Johor or Penang but in Kelantan. This concern or fear of PAS forcing non-Muslims to convert is unfounded. The Quran is clear on this that there should be no compulsion in religion.

We are an Islamic party which strongly believes in and upholds the principles of democracy. In fact we want more democracy in Malaysia. We have to be realistic as Muslims are just about 54% of the population of the country. It is not an overwhelmingly Muslim-majority country. We have to recognise that.

Many people have asked me when we form the government of this country what model will we follow -- the Saudi Arabian model, the Iranian model or even the Sudanese model. I said not any of them. We are going to be our own model.

Many of the members at the muktamar seem to favour former PM Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim to lead a united opposition. Do you think he still has that kind of appeal that, among other things, propelled PAS to make its biggest gain in history in 1999?

I attended the gathering in Istana Hotel on May 29. It was packed. He said it clearly that he was making a comeback. Working with PAS I think he can generate that kind of support. Jointly we are thinking of coming up with programmes for educating the people to realise the importance of their rights as citizens.

So PAS thinks Anwar still has widespread support as in 1999. And for the party to offer to accept him as leader of the united opposition it must be convinced that he still has the support. We think so. But we leave it to the rakyat to decide. He was in Langgar in Kedah last week in a programme organised by PAS. The turnout was huge -- our assessment is that the attendance was anywhere between 30,000 to 40,000. And we haven't taken him to the stadium in Kota Baru yet.

PAS members favour him leading an opposition pact but I wonder whether they would accept him as one of the leaders of their party?

As we have always been saying the party opens its membership to anyone, even members from Umno. In fact I received a number of applications from Umno members. We are open to anyone who wants to join our party. But there are also alot of people out there who are not members but who are staunch supporters. So support for PAS's struggle can be as a member or a supporter.

Hadi and Nik Aziz have always been saying that PAS is more an Islamic movement than a political party. What's your view on this?

We are an Islamic movement with politics as its main component but at the same time we are also a political party based on the fundamentals of Islam based on the Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad. -The Sun